Doctor lectures Valley health professionals on dangers of errors | Local News | dailyitem.com

Tom Benzoni benzonit at GMAIL.COM
Wed May 17 13:10:08 UTC 2017


Maybe getting a bit tangential, but Vic brings up an interesting question.

One feature that differentiates adults from children in a major way is
taking responsibility for one's own choices (and conversely, not taking
responsibility for other's choices, but that's a topic for another day.)

Rather simple solution: If a person, family or group opts out of
vaccination (not true medical exemption) they could post a bond. An actuary
could price this out; we can with carbon credits. This bond could be posted
by the entity proposing (in the way an employer bonds her employees) or
bought a la carte. This would give an air of legitimacy to the anti-vaxxers
I think they'd welcome. Don't drink from a trough you don't help fill.

tom

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Vic Nicholls <nichollsvi2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The reason why I bring up anti vax people is because there is no amount of
> sources/experts that people will believe or act on until they get hurt (and
> some not even then). See below:
>
> Maybe the best thing that an expert or experts or medical groups can do is
> to
>
> * vote for strict quarentine (to protect the community) and
>
> * no medical care ( a - you think its better to have measles or die than
> autism, then live or die with it and b - too expensive to have to pay for
> the outbreaks from public funds for the carnage you wreck on others who are
> too young, immunocompromised, etc. and c - doctors boot out those who
> refuse the vaccine ) and
>
> * lawsuits (you deliberately caused this disaster and why is society asked
> to pay for it, sort of like a car accident).
>
> The only way of getting through to people nowadays to make a dent in the
> behaviors. It is what it is. Sad but true.
>
> Vic
>
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/
> anti-vaccine-activists-spark-a-states-worst-measles-
> outbreak-in-decades/2017/05/04/a1fac952-2f39-11e7-9dec-
> 764dc781686f_story.html?utm_term=.96e08dba4f5c
> "At one 2011 gathering featuring Wakefield, Bahta recalled, an armed guard
> barred her, other public health officials and reporters from attending."
>
> "Fear of autism runs so deep in the Somali community that parents whose
> children have recently come down with measles insist that measles is
> preferable to risking autism."
>
> "The 23-month-old was on an IV for fluids and had repeatedly pulled out
> the oxygen tube in her nose. Her older brother, almost 4, endured a milder
> bout. Neither had received the MMR vaccine. Their father, who is 33 and
> studying mechanical engineering while working as a mechanic, wants to wait.
> His worry: autism. A colleague has a son “who is mute.” “I would hold off
> until she’s 3 . . . or until she fluently starts talking,” he said. His
> wife no longer harbors doubts, however. As soon as both children are well,
> she said, “they are going to get the shot.”
>
> On 5/13/2017 1:21 AM, HM Epstein wrote:
>
> Hi Vic. It's another good question. Especially since our current POTUS is
> anti-vaccine. It brings me back to Dr. Mark Graber's 2008 paper on
> overconfident doctors. There was more correlation between overconfidence
> and errors than anyone suspected. Same thing goes for the anti-VAX crowd or
> political fringe groups. Certainty can make one deaf to any argument. We've
> seen that in the study of Trump supporters who looked at two photographs of
> Obama's and Trump's inauguration crowds. 85% of the Trump supporters, when
> told which inaugural photograph was which, were certain that the crowd
> attending Trump's inauguration was much larger than that attending Obama's.
> However the numbers were reversed when they saw the photographs without any
> specific presidential identification. We know that humans don't make
> decisions based purely on proven facts. Context and stated agreement on
> basic principles are key, too. We are tribal and filter data greatly
> because of it. But my original question was what do you do when so-called
> expert public speakers are exaggerating or misstating the facts? Dr. Graber
> and Paul Epner can't be everywhere.
>
> Best,
> Helene
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 12, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Vic Nicholls <nichollsvi2 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Just one problem Helene: how do we stop anti vaxxers? I either see them
> refuse to recognize science or don't understand science or don't care if it
> is right or not since it isn't their belief.
>
> I saw one article in WaPo recently that this user gave a lot of articles.
> Problems with all of them, and I don't mean all were written by Wakefield
> either.
>
> Vic
>
> On 5/12/2017 11:07 AM, HM Epstein wrote:
>
> ​I rather like "Liar, liar, pants on fire." Perhaps it's the appropriate
> response to every Fake News or media lie. And if I were the reporter
> writing this article or one of the doctors in the audience, I would ask him
> to cite his sources. However, when the message is --​ ​surprisingly --​
> ​still new to the majority of the medical community, do we need to control
> the message? ​And if we do, *how* do we do that? SIDM is still mainly
> volunteer so no one has the time to respond to every errant speaker or
> poorly sourced article.
>
> Any brainstorms?
>
> Best,
> Helene
>
>
> Helene's Website <http://hmepstein.com/>
> Helene's Twitter Account <https://twitter.com/hmepstein>
> Diagnostic Error's Twitter Account <https://twitter.com/DxErrors>
> Diagnostic Errors on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/DiagnosticErrors/>
>> Helene on LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenekepstein/>
>>
> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Rob Bell <rmsbell200 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Brings up the idea of what is FAKE NEWS in the diagnostic world. And how
>> much of it is there?
>>
>> Rob Bell, MD
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 12, 2017, at 5:27 AM, HM Epstein <hmepstein at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>> While we want people in the medical field to talk about preventing
>> diagnostic and medical errors, how do we handle it when the speaker is
>> using inaccurate and inflated statistics? For example, Dr. David Nash is
>> quoted in this article as telling a room full of doctors, “I know you
>> won’t believe this,” he said, “but every American in 2016, had a
>> misdiagnosis or late diagnosis when they visited a doctor in an office.
>> Every American.”
>>
>> Best,
>> Helene
>>
>> http://www.dailyitem.com/content/tncms/live/
>>
>> Doctor lectures Valley health professionals on dangers of errors
>> Rick Dandes <https://www.dailyitem.com/users/profile/Rick%20Dandes>6 hrs
>> ago
>>
>> LEWISBURG — The idea that medical errors are the third leading cause of
>> death in the United States might have surprised many of the health care
>> workers in attendance at the eighth annual Charles P. Fasano Memorial
>> Lecture, Thursday night at Trout Auditorium on the Bucknell University
>> campus.
>>
>> But that was the controversial nature of Dr. David Nash’s one hour talk
>> to approximately 175 area medical doctors and administrators. “And many of
>> those errors are preventable,” he said. “They should be. As doctors, as
>> people in the medical field, we should do no harm.”
>>
>> Nash was introduced by Maria Fasano Bhandgia, who introduced Nash as
>> “someone internationally recognized for his work in public accountability
>> for outcomes and quality of care improvement.”
>>
>> Nash, dean of the Jefferson College of Population Health, in
>> Philadelphia, presented the idea that safety practices in hospitals are not
>> taught and present dangers to patients, even more so than the actual
>> medical procedure, although that can be a problem too.
>>
>> “It’s long been a well-kept secret in the medical field,” he said “that
>> health care is dangerous. For years, those in the field would say, ‘stuff
>> happens because what we do is complicated and people get hurt.”
>>
>> No more is that the case, Nash said. Now there is a public conversation
>> about quality and safety in the medical field. “To do no harm is an
>> enduring notion. But it is more important today than ever before because
>> the tools at our disposal, the technology, the drugs are so incredible. And
>> they all carry risks.”
>>
>> What Nash talked about are preventable medical mistakes. “Certain things
>> carry risk that we describe to patients. Cancer chemotherapy, we know, has
>> bad side effects. That is not what we are talking about.”
>>
>> Nash refers to how, “in this country, four times a week, somebody is
>> operating on the wrong side of the body, the wrong kidney, the wrong side
>> of the brain. That’s a preventable medical mistake.”
>>
>> He also asked, and answered the question, where are there more errors, in
>> a hospital or a doctor’s office?
>>
>> “Four times as many in a doctor’s office,” Nash said. “And the reasons
>> are interesting. The office is a totally failed system because there has
>> never really been any compelling need to really study systems in the office
>> setting. The good news is most of those errors hardly reach the patient.
>> And when they do reach the patient they are not as deadly.”
>>
>> Some errors, he said are: putting the wrong chart on the door. Wrong
>> prescription is a typical office based error. “I know you won’t believe
>> this,” he said, “but every American in 2016, had a misdiagnosis or late
>> diagnosis when they visited a doctor in an office. Every American.”
>>
>> Nash is all about bringing attention to system failure, and he is
>> optimistic that given the Millennial generation’s demands for transparency,
>> hospitals will respond to the need of patients to have more information
>> about their own treatment. And hospitals will have to pay a lot of
>> attention to their systems, make them safe, collaborate as a team …
>> doctors, nurses, other staff.”
>>
>> “But we have a long way to go on all of that,” said Nash.
>>
>> *Email comments to rdandes at dailyitem.com <rdandes at dailyitem.com>. Follow
>> Dandes on Twitter @rdandes.*
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
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Moderator: David Meyers, Board Member, Society to Improve Diagnosis in Medicine


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